Canada: a quiet country with a big impact on Thailand

As well as working in Thailand, you are also Ambassador to Myanmar, Laos, and Cambodia. How does this work?

Well, Thailand is my top priority, given the depth and breadth of our interests here, but I also travel extensively around the region deepening relations and pursuing our national interests with the other countries. Canadian interests have actually grown across the region.

How is trade and investment between Thailand and Canada?

This is a real highlight of the relationship. When I arrived two years ago we had about 1.5 billion Canadian Dollars in two-way investment. It’s now approaching $5 billion. So we’ve tripled in two years, and many companies are looking at expanding in both directions.

Thailand’s biggest single foreign direct investment project anywhere in the world is now in Canada, in our energy sector in Alberta. And I’m confident this will expand.

Is it fair to say that relations between Thailand and Canada are the strongest they’ve ever been?

It’s not an exaggeration to say that Thailand-Canada relations are at their strongest point ever. We may have put more official development aid here in the past, when Thailand needed it, but now our cooperation is much more mutual and involving many more players. It’s taking place in areas that both countries really care about, and increasingly it’s in fields like democratic institution building.

Our relations are also much more multi faceted. Today we all live in complicated societies, fast moving societies, interconnected societies. So now on a given day we may deal concurrently with refugee issues, market access issues, democracy issues, scholarship issues, youth exchanges, consular emergencies and law enforcement matters.

Our embassy is literally at its biggest point that it’s ever been in terms in staff and in terms of breadth of what we’re doing.

How many people does the embassy employ?

Well, we’ve grown considerably in recent years, reflecting our expanded engagement. When I arrived we had 18 Canadian staff, now we have 35. But quite a few of these are temporary staff. We level out at about 22 Canadians on a permanent basis and about double or triple that for Thai staff. We rely very heavily on our Thai staff, on every one of our sections, and their contribution is extremely important to us.

How many Canadians live in Thailand?

Somewhere between five and 10 thousand on a permanent basis.

So does your embassy work closely with Canadian businesses?

Very much so. Canadian businesses can’t do certain things without the embassy, and the embassy doesn’t want to do some things without our companies. Our businesses are important tools to convey our relevance to Thailand. And frankly our business interests and activities are integrally linked to our non business interests.

For example, I inherited responsibility for Cambodia when I arrived. Our dialogue there in the past had tended to be dominated by human rights, governance and democracy, but somewhat detached from our other interests. Now I can go in with 20 Canadian business people and I can sit with a deputy prime minister and say, “deputy prime minister, we care about corruption in this country.

More importantly, these guys care about corruption in your country, and if you can improve it and take your anti-corruption commission and give it teeth, if you can strengthen your judiciary so it’s genuinely independent, these guys are going to put their money in your country. They are going to create jobs. They are going help you achieve your development goals, so let’s work together on this.” And our companies by investing, by showing interest, become drivers for positive change outside of the business field.

I think this is something we’ve done very well in the region, except in Myanmar where we have sanctions on our trade and investment. But I’m a big believer in our ‘Team Canada’ approach, and it has worked tremendously well.

What about Thailand?

When the embers were still smoking in Bangkok at the end of May 2010, we met with our business community and asked, where do we go from here? Our companies all told me that we should stand up and show support for Thailand, and within fifteen minutes companies put some 15,000 – 20,000 dollars down to help us arrange one of the biggest events we’ve ever held, officially dedicated to Bangkok and Thailand. The Bangkok Governor came and spoke, and it showed that by joining forces you can have a much bigger national impact. We couldn’t have done it without our companies, and they couldn’t have done it without us.

So Canada’s companies are optimistic about the future of Thailand?

I think there’s reason to be optimistic about the years to come, and it seems that most Canadian companies agree. One senior executive discussed his company’s billion dollar investment in the country, saying that he knows that Thailand is a long term project, but he believes in it and he’ll be here for the long term. So that’s compelling.

Does Thailand look to Canada as a model for its financial system?

Canada is perhaps the only major western country which didn’t bail out its banks – none of them. We had prudent regulations and strong private sector institutions, and that’s also left many of our friends in the world, including here in Thailand, with the view that we’re a well managed country - reliable, consistent, we know what we’re doing. It’s consequently resulted in a dialogue on issues that weren’t as active in the past – so, yes, they do look at Canada as a model on some matters. We’ve got insurance companies and banks here, and they’re bringing best practices – people and expertise in addition to capital, and commonly in joint venture arrangements. We’re also providing capacity building to financial regulators.

Thailand must be very comfortable with Canada?

This is certainly my experience. We are, as some might say, ‘scaleable.’ We’re a mid-sized country and, importantly, have no colonial history. We don’t threaten anybody, we’re not dominating, and we don’t have a practice of lecturing; it’s a style that in the past has maybe led to a low profile of Canadians abroad, but our close working relationships on this basis have resulted in a much deeper cooperation, and one that everyone’s comfortable with.

Considering the strong relations, are you surprised that not many people are aware of this?

Well, Canadians have a tendency, for better or worse, to be understated. When I arrived here two years ago I went out to meet with ministers, parliamentarians, senior Thai business people, editors of newspapers – and many people said, “Where’s Canada?” So I went back to my embassy and did a stock taking of the things we were doing, and I realized there was very little public awareness of a robust activity program. So we’re now shifting gears, communicating more, and working with Thai organizations that can help project what we’re doing.

For example, we’ve always supported numerous community based projects. Now we’re doing the same amount of work but to a larger degree in fields that are higher priority for Thais, so they notice it more.

What projects are you focusing on?

We spend about a quarter million dollars a year, just out of our embassy funds, for community development projects such as skills training of disadvantaged women, capacity building of journalists on human rights, arranging sports activities for disadvantaged youth, and helping with confidence building dialogue in conflict areas.

We’re still supporting such activities, but also putting more emphasis now on democracy education. We support a wide range of groups which are independent, competent and passionate about good governance in Thailand, and we’re giving them the tools to foster dialogue. Many of them are connected and vocal, so it’s left the impression that we’re spending more money, when we’re just being more strategic and effective.

What are your views on the outcome of the election?

The first thing I’ll say is that as an international diplomatic representative, I take great care not to be interfering with domestic politics. However, it’s important to recognize that Thailand is a very complex place and real change is not going to happen fast.

Leading up to the elections there was much concern about the possible conduct of the elections – whether people would be allowed to vote, whether the election results would be accepted, whether divided results would result in immediate instability – and none of those things happened. So that’s encouraging. It’s also very positive that more than 75% of Thais came out to vote.

Notwithstanding the efforts made by some people to sway voters, our indications are that most Thais voted the way they wanted to vote. Some of them very cleverly took money from multiple parties and went into the booths and then voted for who they wanted to. I think that shows that voters are standing up for themselves and are becoming more politically conscious about what their stake is in the system, and I think that’s a good sign for the future.

As for the result - it was a fairly convincing one, with a reasonably clear outcome. To the credit of those who did not win, the broad result was accepted, and it was accepted quickly, and I think that’s an important signal that the fundamentals of democracy are present and most players are committed to them.

When one looks back on the last ten years there has been some notable non democratic activity which has set the country back from some of the advances it made in earlier years. But now the momentum may be starting to turn again. So that’s the positive part.

The part that’s less clear will be what kind of leadership is demonstrated in the future. What kind of tough decisions are made by the players who are now in the position to make those calls.

Have you met Khun Yingluck?

Khun Yingluck kindly agreed to see me shortly after the election and we had a good initial talk. I gave her Canada’s views on our bilateral relationship and heard what she had to say about how she sees things unfolding. I pledged Canada’s support if she forms the government and said we’d be available to help anyway we can.

Encouragingly, we reviewed a whole range of matters involving Canada and Thailand and one thing she focused on was the continued need of the friends of Thailand to support democratic dialogue and development, and we’re really one of the most active countries in this field, so that was really heartening.

Do you think she will have a positive impact on Thailand?

Governing is hard. It’s hard anywhere but it will be particularly challenging here where expectations are high, and where interests of stakeholders are varied. Where Thailand goes will depend on her leadership, but also on the views and actions of those around her, and on conditions and developments she can’t completely control. Every Thai ultimately has a contribution to make to good governance. 

Within her mandate, Khun Yingluck can also make some early decisions which set the tone on corruption and governance generally, and to bring some stability and clarity in terms of policy. Her leadership on reconciliation issues and processes will be vitally important. She really does face a huge task.

Did last year’s political unrest affect the number of Canadian tourists coming to Thailand?

We have between 170,000 and 200,000 visitors a year and the figure is growing. We also have growth in Burma, in Laos, and in Cambodia even though Canada is on the other side of the planet.

This is a very popular and special region for Canadians. It’s a serious commitment to come from Canada to this part of the world, so people tend to be a little bit better off, better planned, tend to have health insurance – so they’re good tourists for the countries involved.

When it comes to tourists getting into trouble in Thailand, recent statistics show that UK visitors are among the worst. What about Canada?

I think in the UK case it just has such a wide range of tourists. In the four countries I’m responsible for Canada collectively has one death per week; I understand the UK has about one a day. I think this mostly reflects sheer UK visitor numbers.

How often do you travel around the region?

I travel on average a couple of times a month, and sometimes more. I’ve been to Burma extensively recently as there is much happening there at the moment. Cambodia has been very active for us too. I try to get around Thailand as much as I can.

One frustration for us is that we cover a territory of 140 million. I’ve got a wonderful embassy, with staff which are talented and committed, but we are not big. So we have to stay focused on our priorities - we can’t do everything we’d like to do. As a result, you won’t see Canada at a lot of perfume launches, restaurant anniversaries, or hotel openings because we just can’t afford the time. But we know what we want to do here and we’re really doing it, and that’s important for everyone.

You obviously enjoy living and working in Thailand?

I came directly, overnight, from Afghanistan, where I’d spent two years. Arriving here was an assault on the senses, in terms of its greenery, its climate, its food, and it was liberating at the same time. In Afghanistan I had to travel everywhere with six bodyguards, and here I can walk into the back streets or around markets and nobody really looks at me. So it’s a very liberating, but also a comfortable, relaxed, and welcoming place.

What do you like most about living here?

Bangkok’s a great international city. Its traffic isn’t always inspiring but you can live with that because of everything else the city offers. If you like food, you can have the best of everything. It’s also culturally rich. And of course the work is enjoyable and stimulating. There aren’t many jobs in which you can work every day until late, and always end up saying “man, was that an interesting day.” There are tremendous people here who are world class in every field. When you get to know people and seek them out you discover there is tremendous human capital in Thailand.

Are your discussions optimistic?

The stimulating thing about it is that the discussions are not always optimistic and the future is full of uncertainty. The politics of this place are difficult and the society complex. There are some deeply imbedded practices and stakes are high. Some things are going to be painful and difficult to change. It’s also exciting, compelling, and satisfying when Thai friends and partners ask for our views and ask us to stand by them. And when we do, we know that we may be able to help create the conditions, and provide the tools and the encouragement to move it in the right direction. But ultimately change will be the product of Thai decisions and leadership; this can’t be determined from outside but it can be helped along.

Can corruption be stamped out?

I think there is widespread disillusionment at the lack of progress in tackling corruption where it exists, which is not everywhere in government. I have no doubt that in the case of the most recent government much will was there, but Thais tell me that they look at what was done and say it wasn’t enough. One of the most encouraging things I’ve seen in the last few months is the strength of Thailand’s own business community’s voice on corruption. The Thai Chamber of Commerce has shown real leadership, and companies are signing a pledge to not involve themselves in corrupt practices. So if Thai companies or the principal companies doing business with the government can stand up and say they are not going to have their arms twisted to pay fees they shouldn’t be paying, then that’s a big start. The media are covering this debate very openly, and ordinary people are talking about it, so from that point of view conditions are getting better.

What’s the most memorable experience you’ve had during your two years here?

There are many experiences I’ll cherish. One of them was standing on July 1st last year, our national day, with the Governor of Bangkok and 800 people in front of us at the Four Seasons Hotel and being given the chance to show our support for Thailand. We haven’t held that kind of event in a few years. It was a time when people felt bruised, shocked, and it was touching to be able endorse this country and its people at a time of need.

And standing on the Thai border with Myanmar and seeing refugees coming over the border, shocked and dazed in a different way, having just been displaced by military action, and talking to them about what happened and asking how we can help. We’ve just completed a program taking 5,000 displaced Karen to Canada, which is one of the biggest resettlements of Burmese refugees. This is a tangible example of the human dimension of the work we do; it’s not theoretical, these are real people who have lost everything.

I similarly went to a detention center in Phnom Penh which the Cambodian government was going to close which housed a minority group from Vietnam. I went with the head of the UNHCR (UN Refugee Agency) who showed it to me and within 24 hours Canada had accepted every one of them. These are powerful moments.

Your plans for the future?

I have one or two more years here, then it’s probably time, after eight years abroad, that I went back to headquarters, which some feel is one of those necessary evils. Actually, it’s good to be back in Ottawa from time to time because one can help set frameworks and policies which shape the future of my country’s diplomacy in pretty fundamental ways. But first I want to make the most of the opportunities the Canadian Embassy team and I have here in Bangkok. I remain excited about every day I still have in Thailand and the region.